Let's Play A Game! Is this a man or a woman?

[Jack]

Presumably, from what you've said on the topic, you believe that men who 'identify as' women are exactly equivalent to women who are genetically, anatomically, and functionally female.

Correct?

No. That's not how I feel at all.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

No. That's not how I feel at all.

Let me simplify the position, then. Do you believe that 'trans women are women'?

 

[Jack]

Let me simplify the position, then. Do you believe that 'trans women are women'?

Well certainly. They don't "identify" as women, they "are" women despite their genetic sex.

There are also women who are men in that regard.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Well certainly. They don't "identify" as women, they "are" women despite their genetic sex.

And is it your belief that you have every right to state that position without others attempting to shame, threaten, or otherwise coerce you to state the opposite? Do you think anyone should be able to successfully compel you to make a statement on the topic which you do not believe to be true?

 

[Jack]

Back to Loktar. He doesn't identify as a woman, he just wants to look like one and rub one off. He wants a girlfriend and never has had one.

You think Lox would get all dolled up and wave his dick around in some anonymous ladies room?

 

[Jack]

And is it your belief that you have every right to state that position without others attempting to shame, threaten, or otherwise coerce you to state the opposite? Do you think anyone should be able to successfully compel you to make a statement on the topic which you do not believe to be true?

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Back to Loktar. He doesn't identify as a woman, he just wants to look like one and rub one off. He wants a girlfriend and never has had one.

You think Lox would get all dolled up and wave his dick around in some anonymous ladies room?

That goes to my previous point in another thread; he is, based on that, a transvestite, not 'transgender'.

As for whether he'd do something like that or not, I objectively can't hazard an accurate guess. But I wouldn't gamble anyone else's potential trauma that anybody wouldn't, and I wouldn't fault anybody else who likewise wouldn't place a wager on it.

Back to the issue of compelled speech: If no one has the right to tell you what you must or must not say on the topic, I think it's only fair that the same courtesy be shown to everyone, whether they agree with one's own position or not.

You're perfectly free to believe that those who claim to be women, regardless of biology, are women simply because they claim to be.

I'm equally free to disagree with that.

 

[Jack]

Except that's not what I'm claiming at all, your inference noted.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Well certainly. They don't "identify" as women, they "are" women despite their genetic sex.

Except that's not what I'm claiming at all, your inference noted.

You may want to revisit your claim. There it is up there.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Let's play another game; a thought experiment:

Your friend pays you a visit. He's got another guy with him; other guy's on a leash, butt-ass naked except for a rubber dog nose strapped to his face, a headband with rubber puppy ears, and a little 'tail' butt-plug hangin' out of his ass.

Now, you're a tolerant sort of a guy, but your friend tells you the naked dude is his German Shepherd puppy. Said 'puppy' keeps sniffing your ass, then crawls over, lifts a leg, and pisses all over your couch.

Is it, 'hate, bias, homophobia, and misandry' if you refuse to accept that the dude who just pissed on your couch is an actual canine?

 

[Admin.]

Let's play another game; a thought experiment:

Your friend pays you a visit. He's got another guy with him; other guy's on a leash, butt-ass naked except for a rubber dog nose strapped to his face, a headband with rubber puppy ears, and a little 'tail' butt-plug hangin' out of his ass.

Now, you're a tolerant sort of a guy, but your friend tells you the naked dude is his German Shepherd puppy. Said 'puppy' keeps sniffing your ass, then crawls over, lifts a leg, and pisses all over your couch.

Is it, 'hate, bias, homophobia, and misandry' if you refuse to accept that the dude who just pissed on your couch is an actual canine?

How about you click your heels together 3 times while chanting, 'there's no place like home, there's no place like home'

 

[Neil B. Formi]

How about you click your heels together 3 times while chanting, 'there's no place like home, there's no place like home'

It's okay for you to say nothing when you have nothing to say.

 

[Lily]

Let's play another game; a thought experiment:

Your friend pays you a visit. He's got another guy with him; other guy's on a leash, butt-ass naked except for a rubber dog nose strapped to his face, a headband with rubber puppy ears, and a little 'tail' butt-plug hangin' out of his ass.

Now, you're a tolerant sort of a guy, but your friend tells you the naked dude is his German Shepherd puppy. Said 'puppy' keeps sniffing your ass, then crawls over, lifts a leg, and pisses all over your couch.

Is it, 'hate, bias, homophobia, and misandry' if you refuse to accept that the dude who just pissed on your couch is an actual canine?

Wow, that's JUST like transwomen in stalls in women's bathrooms.

False equivalency much?

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Wow, that's JUST like transwomen in stalls in women's bathrooms.

False equivalency much?

Demonstration of the underlying principle, much. Presenting the principle in a modified scenario so that you have to think about it instead of reciting talking points from rote, much. If you can't be bothered to follow along, just be honest and say so.

 

[Lily]

Demonstration of the underlying principle, much. Presenting the principle in a modified scenario so that you have to think about it instead of reciting talking points from rote, much. If you can't be bothered to follow along, just be honest and say so.

It's not at all.

You are comparing a public bathroom to your own home to begin with. The "demonstration" falls apart on your first step.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

It's not at all.

You are comparing a public bathroom to your own home to begin with. The "demonstration" falls apart on your first step.

I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm presenting a standalone scenario for analysis.

 

[Lily]

I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm presenting a standalone scenario for analysis.

But that's your whole point is to make a comparison in the context of trans people. It's the subject of the thread.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

But that's your whole point is to make a comparison in the context of trans people. It's the subject of the thread.

Don't shift the goalposts. Your complaint was that I was comparing a residence to a bathroom; I was not.

I'm comparing the underlying principle, not the particulars between two scenarios.

 

[Lily]

Don't shift the goalposts. Your complaint was that I was comparing a residence to a bathroom; I was not.

I'm comparing the underlying principle, not the particulars between two scenarios.

YOU are shifting the goal posts.

The underlying principle is different. What we allow in our homes and what we need to tolerate/accept/expect in public are often different.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

YOU are shifting the goal posts.

The underlying principle is different. What we allow in our homes and what we need to tolerate/accept/expect in public are often different.

Compelling agreement is compelling agreement, whether in public or in someone's home other than your own. Same principle in both scenarios.

So what's your stance on the scenario I presented? Or are you uncomfortable contending with that scenario because doing so might require you to concede that some behaviors are unacceptable outside one's own home?

 

[Lily]

Compelling agreement is compelling agreement, whether in public or in someone's home other than your own. Same principle in both scenarios.

So what's your stance on the scenario I presented? Or are you uncomfortable contending with that scenario because doing so might require you to concede that some behaviors are unacceptable outside one's own home?

I'm not uncomfortable asserting my beliefs, feelings and point of view in my own home, no. I wouldn't agree to see someone as a DOG when they are clearly human.

I still won't compare apples to oranges and say, yep, they're both round, therefore the same.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

So did we reach an agreement in re: compulsory agreement?

Should people be coerced or manipulated into saying that something resembling this...

...is "ma'am", regardless of what everyone can clearly see?

And, if so, who gets to benefit from compulsory agreement? Can Neo-Nazis claim that benefit next? Young-Earth Creationists? Mormons? Scientologists? I mean, Scientologists are already ridden with a reputation for that kind of "don't believe your own eyes" cult-like horseshit.

So who else gets to ride the "say what we tell you to say, or else" train?

 

[Admin.]

Be sure to use plenty of lube guise.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

I'm not uncomfortable asserting my beliefs, feelings and point of view in my own home, no. I wouldn't agree to see someone as a DOG when they are clearly human.

I still won't compare apples to oranges and say, yep, they're both round, therefore the same.

We're not comparing apples to oranges; we're comparing fruits to fruits -- and they're both fruity.

 

[Lily]

So did we reach an agreement in re: compulsory agreement?

Should people be coerced or manipulated into saying that something resembling this...

...is "ma'am", regardless of what everyone can clearly see?

And, if so, who gets to benefit from compulsory agreement? Can Neo-Nazis claim that benefit next? Young-Earth Creationists? Mormons? Scientologists? I mean, Scientologists are already ridden with a reputation for that kind of "don't believe your own eyes" cult-like horseshit.

So who else gets to ride the "say what we tell you to say, or else" train?

Coerced?

You don't have to do anything in your own home except for not break laws.

In public, you need to stay in your own lane.

Why is that so controversial to conservatives? Must you stick your nose into everyone's business?

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Coerced?

You don't have to do anything in your own home except for not break laws.

In public, you need to stay in your own lane.

Why is that so controversial to conservatives? Must you stick your nose into everyone's business?

Must I tolerate people sticking their 'business' in my face and demanding that I cheer it? Should people be browbeaten into tolerating street preachers, too?

There's a place for everything, and 'in public' isn't always that place.

 

[The Prowler]

Seriously, if some dude wanted to go "Trans" just to excel at something, why wouldn't they go into something more lucrative than swimming?

What women's sport is "lucrative"?

And...do you really think any dude can just play any women's sport at a professional level?

 

[The Prowler]

Biological men should be kept out of spaces that are intended to be used exclusively by biological women.

I think we all owe that to biological women.

 

[Neil B. Formi]

Biological men should be kept out of spaces that are intended to be used exclusively by biological women.

I think we all owe that to biological women.

We just need to get used to the new rules. Ready?

If you're a sexual predator who's into little boys, put on a clerical collar.
If you're a sexual predator who isn't picky, or doesn't want to memorize a lot of bronze-age superstitious horseshit, put on womanface.
If you're a steroid-abusing, low-IQ, psychotic bully who wants to rob and/or kill people and get away with it, put on a badge.

And since some are guaranteed to fail to read the above fully and precisely:

No, "not all x are y."

But those three demographic segments are magnetic to bad actors, because all three segments come with hordes of people who will defend bad actors uncritically, failing (or refusing) to separate individual from group.

 

[The Prowler]

If you're a steroid-abusing psychotic bully who wants to rob and/or kill people and get away with it, put on a badge.

I missed my calling.