Interesting analysis of the Kirk hit

[MrNiceGuy]

I disagree with the premise that Islam has killed more people than any other political or religious group in history.

Lily please don't up rep a bot who calls me an A.I. guy.

Reinforcing stereotypes is pretty much the same thing as you upvoting this bot.

 

[Lily]

Here is what the conquest and colonization of the America's cost the indigenous people of the Americas...and proportionately, it was much more devastating. 90%

Q: How many indigenous people died in the America's as the result of European conquest and colonialism?

A: Scholars estimate that the indigenous population of the Americas plummeted from over 60 million people in 1492 to around 6 million by 1600. This "Great Dying" resulted in the deaths of approximately 55 million indigenous people over a little more than a century, representing a mortality rate of about 90% in many regions.


Primary causes of death

• Disease: Epidemics of European and African diseases like smallpox, measles, influenza, typhus, cholera, and bubonic plague were the most devastating killers. Indigenous populations had no prior immunity to these foreign pathogens, making them especially vulnerable to repeated, high-mortality waves of infection. One 2019 study proposed that the resulting population drop was so severe it led to global climate cooling, known as the "Little Ice Age," as vast tracts of abandoned farmland became reforested.
• Violence and Warfare: European colonists and conquistadors used systematic violence, warfare, and massacres to conquer and displace indigenous nations. This included both direct conflict and exploiting existing rivalries between different nations.
• Forced Labor and Slavery: Europeans forced indigenous people into slavery, especially on the Caribbean islands and in Central and South America, where they were subjected to brutal conditions, starvation, and overwork in mines and on plantations. This included the use of the encomienda system in Spanish colonies.
• Famine and Displacement: Colonial policies disrupted traditional indigenous societies, food systems, and agricultural practices. The seizure of land and resources, along with the mass death caused by disease, led to widespread famine that further increased the mortality rate.
• Systemic Genocide: The catastrophic scale of the depopulation has led some historians and scholars, including Raphael Lemkin (the originator of the term "genocide"), to consider European colonization an act of genocide. The violence, diseases, and atrocities committed by Europeans were systematic, leading to the eradication or near-extermination of many indigenous groups.

 

[The Best Holliday]

Not what a google search says.

Q: Which religion or social movement has been responsible for the most deaths of human beings?

A: While specific numbers are widely debated and difficult to verify, the social movement of communism is consistently cited as having the highest death toll in human history. Historical scholarship generally concludes that communist regimes were responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people through state-sanctioned violence and policy-induced famines.

Death tolls from social and political movements
Estimates for deaths under communist regimes vary, but even conservative figures dwarf other modern social movements and historical religious wars.

• Communism: Total deaths, including from government-induced famine, mass executions, forced labor, and purges in the 20th century, are estimated by some historians and scholars to be over 100 million people. The highest death tolls occurred in China under Mao Zedong and the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin.

• National Socialism (Nazism): Nazi Germany, from 1933 to 1945, was responsible for the deaths of millions. This includes the systematic murder of approximately 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, as well as millions of other civilians and prisoners of war who were killed for racial or ideological reasons.
• Colonialism: While not a single movement, centuries of colonialism led by European powers resulted in the deaths of millions of people. This occurred through exploitation, conflict, resource extraction, and the transatlantic slave trade, the latter of which was sometimes justified on religious grounds. The violence and atrocities of King Leopold II in the Congo Free State, for instance, are estimated to have caused millions of deaths

Deaths from religious conflicts
It is a misconception that religion has been the primary cause of most wars or deaths throughout history. Many conflicts with religious overtones were primarily driven by political, territorial, and economic motives. Some major conflicts where religion played a significant role include

• The Muslim conquests in India: Some estimates place the deaths from these centuries-long conflicts in the tens of millions, though figures are highly debated.
• The Crusades: These medieval military campaigns, conducted by European Christians, resulted in millions of deaths across Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.
• The European Wars of Religion: This series of wars in the 16th and 17th centuries, including the Thirty Years' War, involved clashes between Catholics and Protestants. Estimates for the Thirty Years' War alone range from 4.5 to 8 million deaths.
• The Taiping Rebellion: This 19th-century Chinese civil war was led by a man claiming to be the brother of Jesus Christ. It was one of the bloodiest conflicts in history, with a death toll estimated between 20 and 70 million. Due to the movement's unique, syncretic nature, classifying it as purely a "religious war" is contentious

Well, as I pointed out the other day when AI Google stated that the Mariners season had ended because they clinched their division, AI doesn't always get it right. I mean, golly, this thing is so comprehensive it left out 55 million in the Americas. As I pointed out at the time, even a muslim scholar/historian placed the number in India at 400 million.
You know, it isn't very PC to criticize islam. Well, as always, fuck PCism. The fact is that everywhere islam goes there is violent conflict, from Mecca, to the ME, to Africa, to India, western Europe and eastern Europe. Islam is violent intolerant ignorant pigs.

 

[The Best Holliday]

I don't name call you. There's no need to name call me.

He is not a gentleman.

 

[Lily]

Well, as I pointed out the other day when AI Google stated that the Mariners season had ended because they clinched their division, AI doesn't always get it right. I mean, golly, this thing is so comprehensive it left out 55 million in the Americas. As I pointed out at the time, even a muslim scholar/historian placed the number in India at 400 million.
You know, it isn't very PC to criticize islam. Well, as always, fuck PCism. The fact is that everywhere islam goes there is violent conflict, from Mecca, to the ME, to Africa, to India, western Europe and eastern Europe. Islam is violent intolerant ignorant pigs.

Dude, you use AI your own self. Don't come at me with that.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Not what a google search says.

Q: Which religion or social movement has been responsible for the most deaths of human beings?

A: While specific numbers are widely debated and difficult to verify, the social movement of communism is consistently cited as having the highest death toll in human history. Historical scholarship generally concludes that communist regimes were responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people through state-sanctioned violence and policy-induced famines.

Death tolls from social and political movements
Estimates for deaths under communist regimes vary, but even conservative figures dwarf other modern social movements and historical religious wars.

• Communism: Total deaths, including from government-induced famine, mass executions, forced labor, and purges in the 20th century, are estimated by some historians and scholars to be over 100 million people. The highest death tolls occurred in China under Mao Zedong and the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin.

• National Socialism (Nazism): Nazi Germany, from 1933 to 1945, was responsible for the deaths of millions. This includes the systematic murder of approximately 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, as well as millions of other civilians and prisoners of war who were killed for racial or ideological reasons.
• Colonialism: While not a single movement, centuries of colonialism led by European powers resulted in the deaths of millions of people. This occurred through exploitation, conflict, resource extraction, and the transatlantic slave trade, the latter of which was sometimes justified on religious grounds. The violence and atrocities of King Leopold II in the Congo Free State, for instance, are estimated to have caused millions of deaths

Deaths from religious conflicts
It is a misconception that religion has been the primary cause of most wars or deaths throughout history. Many conflicts with religious overtones were primarily driven by political, territorial, and economic motives. Some major conflicts where religion played a significant role include

• The Muslim conquests in India: Some estimates place the deaths from these centuries-long conflicts in the tens of millions, though figures are highly debated.
• The Crusades: These medieval military campaigns, conducted by European Christians, resulted in millions of deaths across Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.
• The European Wars of Religion: This series of wars in the 16th and 17th centuries, including the Thirty Years' War, involved clashes between Catholics and Protestants. Estimates for the Thirty Years' War alone range from 4.5 to 8 million deaths.
• The Taiping Rebellion: This 19th-century Chinese civil war was led by a man claiming to be the brother of Jesus Christ. It was one of the bloodiest conflicts in history, with a death toll estimated between 20 and 70 million. Due to the movement's unique, syncretic nature, classifying it as purely a "religious war" is contentious

Communism isn't a religion. Communism is a lack of religion.

 

[Lily]

He is not a gentleman.

Perhaps he regrets it.

 

[Lily]

Communism isn't a religion. Communism is a lack of religion.

I didn't say it was a religion. I asked AI for broad categories as in "religion" or "social movement".

So, what's your beef?

 

[The Best Holliday]

Perhaps he regrets it.

I think he's kind of on his heels now. A light breeze and he'll topple.

 

[The Best Holliday]

Dude, you use AI your own self. Don't come at me with that.

Right, that's why I always fact check it, because I know it isn't always right.

 

[Lily]

Right, that's why I always fact check it, because I know it isn't always right.

And whose scholars are we going to use to fact check this particular data?

After all, Islam was as expansionist as the Greeks, The Romans, The Mongols, etc, etc...

Never mind the people in Modern times, from the time of the earliest European colonists

 

[The Best Holliday]

And who's scholars are we going to use to fact check this particular data?

After all, Islam was as expansionist as the Greeks, The Romans, The Mongols, etc, etc...

Speaking of Mongols I forgot the deliberate introduction of the Black Death into Europe by muslim Mongols.
. So let's add another 50 million there.

 

[Lily]

Speaking of Mongols I forgot the deliberate introduction of the Black Death into Europe by muslim Mongols.
. So let's add another 50 million there.

Well, tell my native ancestors all about it. 90% of them were eliminated, much higher death toll than most anything in human history, yo.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Lily, I don't want you to ever lose your fire or fight for that which you truly believe in. But A.I. sources be damned.

You're greater than a single google search.

Know that.

When I say I want to pick Lily's brain, I don't just mean the results of pefunctory google ai inspired search.

I mean this broad knows shit and if I knew what this broad knew I would be a better man. And person.

 

[The Best Holliday]

Well, tell my native ancestors all about it. 90% of them were eliminated, much higher death toll than most anything in human history, yo.

I very carefully included that in my plausibility analysis as you recall. I can find the actual posts but I copied it out in preservation if you would care to peruse.

 

[The Best Holliday]

I mean this broad knows shit

That just sounds like clever wording to me, pal.

 

[Lily]

Lily, I don't want you to ever lose your fire or fight for that which you truly believe in. But A.I. sources be damned.

You're greater than a single google search.

Know that.

When I say I want to pick Lily's brain, I don't just mean the results of pefunctory google ai inspired search.

I mean this broad knows shit and if I knew what this broad knew I would be a better man. And person.

I know a little bit about a lot of things.

If we want a peaceful world, we need all humans to have a home and their basic needs met.

We should have evolved enough by now to stop killing one another.

 

[Lily]

I very carefully included that in my plausibility analysis as you recall. I can find the actual posts but I copied it out in preservation if you would care to peruse.

Plausibility analysis about what?

90% of a population being killed off, mostly by disease, was not only devastating, made taking their home pretty easy I'd say.

So when I hear about the superiority of Europeans and how it's that superiority that made them able to snatch the land, it makes me laugh.

 

[The Best Holliday]

Plausibility analysis about what?

90% of a population being killed off, mostly by disease, was not only devastating, made taking their home pretty easy I'd say.

So when I hear about the superiority of Europeans and how it's that superiority that made them able to snatch the land, it makes me laugh.

No, I agree with that. The plausibility analysis of the 250 million in the 1000 year conquest by muslims in India which I did in a mess in the ME thread.

 

[Lily]

No, I agree with that. The plausibility analysis of the 250 million in the 1000 year conquest by muslims in India which I did in a mess in the ME thread.

Can you cite a credible source for 250 million?

There's no way, there would be no Indians left now if you look at estimates of the entire global population, Doc.

"The world population grew from approximately 275 million in 1000 CE to about 425-500 million in 1500 CE, with significant variations in growth rates due to events like the

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."

 

[The Best Holliday]

Plausibility analysis about what?

90% of a population being killed off, mostly by disease, was not only devastating, made taking their home pretty easy I'd say.

So when I hear about the superiority of Europeans and how it's that superiority that made them able to snatch the land, it makes me laugh.

History records superiority in military innovation and might.
.. I was remarking to myself today that most animals run in terror from humans.
The fact is that there is no supposed to be in human evolution that isn't a reality.
. Conservatism is lack of spiritual evolution. This is why we have violence and lack of cooperation.
The bulk of humanity is barely above animal instinct.

PS: you don't need to remind me that I'm a fisherman, or that I consume animal products.
I know I'm evil. (winkydink smiley)

 

[The Best Holliday]

Can you cite a credible source for 250 million?

There's no way, there would be no Indians left now if you look at estimates of the entire global population, Doc.

"The world population grew from approximately 275 million in 1000 CE to about 425-500 million in 1500 CE, with significant variations in growth rates due to events like the

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."

It's all in the analysis I provided with more than adequate cushions to err on the side of lowering the number of dead..

 

[Lily]

It's all in the analysis I provided with more than adequate cushions to err on the side of lowering the number of dead..

Sorry, if the human population was only around half a billion at the time, your number just doesn't jive.

 

[The Best Holliday]

Sorry, if the human population was only around half a billion at the time, your number just doesn't jive.

LoLz - See that's why I say, you need to read what I wrote. "At the time"...this didn't happen in one day, it happened over 1000 years. How many people were born in that time? Read and find out.

Reply #372. Plenty going on before and after of course but that is the single post I referred to.

https://bastardfactory.net/threads/at-least-10-people-killed-on-new-orleans%E2%80%99-bourbon-street-after-car-drives-into-crowd-officials-say.16431/page-13

 

[Lily]

LoLz - See that's why I say, you need to read what I wrote. "At the time"...this didn't happen in one day, it happened over 1000 years. How many people were born in that time? Read and find out.

Reply #372. Plenty going on before and after of course but that is the single post I referred to.

https://bastardfactory.net/threads/at-least-10-people-killed-on-new-orleans%E2%80%99-bourbon-street-after-car-drives-into-crowd-officials-say.16431/page-13

According to my research, most of it happened over 500 years...

I think it's probably much lower than the number you cite

 

[The Best Holliday]

According to my research, most of it happened over 500 years...

I think it's probably much lower than the number you cite

#382 is also interesting.

 

[The Best Holliday]

According to my research, most of it happened over 500 years...

I think it's probably much lower than the number you cite

Another way of generating a number which is probably how most have done it is to take the starting and ending populations and using expected birth rates and mortality rate project the expected ending population. That is what I did in estimating births over the 1000 year period. Remember, a very substantial percentage of humanity lived in India during that period and were Hindu.

...and remember I just sited that 50 million Europeans were killed by the Black Death in a relative handful of years in the 1300s.

and PS: since we are having fun with AI today:

Yes, the Golden Horde was Muslim during the Siege of Kaffa (1343-1346), as

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had proclaimed Islam as the official religion of the Golden Horde around 1313, and his successor,

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, continued to persecute Christians and favor Islamic law during his reign. The Kaffa siege was the result of a falling-out between the Golden Horde and the Genoese, which was exacerbated by this growing Islamic influence and tensions over the slave trade.

Golden Horde Religion and the Siege of Kaffa:

• Conversion to Islam:
  The Golden Horde officially converted to Islam under Uzbeg Khan, who reigned from 1312 to 1341.
  
  
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  and the Siege:
  Jani Beg, the son of Uzbeg Khan, ascended to the throne in 1340 and continued his father's pro-Islam policies.
  
  
• Growing Tensions:
  The Islamic policies of the Horde and Jani Beg led to an increase in hostility and mistrust between the Muslims of the Horde and the Christian Genoese residents of Caffa.
  
  
• Kaffa Siege (1343-1346):
  The siege itself was precipitated by an incident involving the Genoese, but it also reflected the wider tensions between the Christian West and the expanding Islamic influence of the Golden Horde.

 

[Lily]

Another way of generating a number which is probably how most have done it is to take the starting and ending populations and using expected birth rates and mortality rate project the expected ending population. That is what I did in estimating births over the 1000 year period. Remember, a very substantial percentage of humanity lived in India during that period and were Hindu.

...and remember I just sited that 50 million Europeans were killed by the Black Death in a relative handful of years in the 1300s.

Most modern scholars seem to see sort of agree that it was 60-80 million. Nothing to sneeze at.

 

[The Best Holliday]

Most modern scholars seem to see sort of agree that it was 60-80 million. Nothing to sneeze at.

PCism blows. 250 million easy, that's conservative estimates.

PS: please see Golden Horde edit above.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

1948 vs 9/11/2001.

Land taken from lives is never justification for lives taken from lands.

A mlliion arabs relocated to create Israel is never justification for three thousand lives extinguished forever.

Life relocated can continue. Life ended is snuffed forever.

Which is the wost injustice if we are standing against injustice?