Choose COVID-19 or an abortion.

COVID-19 or abortion?

  • I have Medicaid and I can choose both.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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Whomever

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Hello friends. This is where I submit to you the ultimate dilemma, which we cleverly devised upstairs:

Would you rather be treating a horrible condition that has made you feel like you would rather die, or do you want COVID-19?
 

Dove

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Covid.

Even if I died of Covid, I'd rather die than harm a defenseless human being.

No dilemma here.
 

Dove

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Dove, I am glad you choose COVID-19. You can harm so many more defenseless human beings this way.

Nope! I would quarantine.

I dont go out unless I have to and we have to get tested regularly. I stay distanced and keep my germy droplets to myself.

Also with the survival rate....I just cannot chose directly brutally killing one human to avoid a very slim possibility of infecting someone who probably would be asymptomatic.
 

Joe

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Covid.

Even if I died of Covid, I'd rather die than harm a defenseless human being.

No dilemma here.

But do you think if a woman aborts a fetus within the first 2 months when it doesn't have a brain steam or central nervous system, that it's OK for her to abort it?

Surely there must be a 'grace period' which can allow a woman to go ahead with a pregnancy or to abort it.
 

Dove

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Covid.

Even if I died of Covid, I'd rather die than harm a defenseless human being.

No dilemma here.

But do you think if a woman aborts a fetus within the first 2 months when it doesn't have a brain steam or central nervous system, that it's OK for her to abort it?

Surely there must be a 'grace period' which can allow a woman to go ahead with a pregnancy or to abort it.

Joe, please provide a citation from a reputable primary source on Embryology that shows a human being in the embryonic stage of human development does not have a brain stem or nerves.

Also....just because a human being may not feel you killing them doesnt somehow make killing that human okay.

We dont treat any other human beings like that.

Yanno....maybe when you make an argument for abortion, apply that same argument to killing a born human. If it doesnt work there .....it wont work with pre born humans either.

The grace period is right before you feel the tip.
 

Joe

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Covid.

Even if I died of Covid, I'd rather die than harm a defenseless human being.

No dilemma here.

But do you think if a woman aborts a fetus within the first 2 months when it doesn't have a brain steam or central nervous system, that it's OK for her to abort it?

Surely there must be a 'grace period' which can allow a woman to go ahead with a pregnancy or to abort it.

Joe, please provide a citation from a reputable primary source on Embryology that shows a human being in the embryonic stage of human development does not have a brain stem or nerves.

Also....just because a human being may not feel you killing them doesnt somehow make killing that human okay.

We dont treat any other human beings like that.

Yanno....maybe when you make an argument for abortion, apply that same argument to killing a born human. If it doesnt work there .....it wont work with pre born humans either.

The grace period is right before you feel the tip.

Well Dovey...if you wanna save every fetus, then expect more births and the state to spend more money to support more children. That's just the way it is.

A state can't mandate that women should have more children - but then be unwilling to fund them.

Like cut the education and daycare budgets and then give tax breaks to billionaires.

And of course, there's the social obligation too.

What I discovered is that a person who doesn't have children can't ignore them either.

For example a couple of years ago, I had a friend who asked me to lend him and his gf money or else they would get evicted. So...reluncantly I lent them the money. But that experience taught me, that it's difficult, if not impossible to ignore a mother's/child's pleas for help.

Anyways, I saw the child and her mother walk down the street recently, and the child seemed so happy and smiled at me. Long story short, if I refused to help them at the time, they got evicted, and were forced to live in some slum or low income housing complex, That might have adversely affected the child's development. So in retrospect, it was the right thing to do.

Point being of the story, is that it takes money and commitment if we wanna bring more children in the world.

Even if it is not their child, a person cannot ignore the suffering of others.

I know you don't like Hillarly Clinton, but her line "It takes a Village" is so true.

We are all interconnected whether we like to admit it or not.
 

Dove

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Joe.....do we use these arguments and reasons to justify killing born humans? No.

Its really not different Joe.....same human being....different age.

And if abortion were not legal....I'm convinced we would see a very lowered rate of unplanned pregnancy and probably more sterilization....but no one is ready for that talk. :whistling:
 

Joe

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Joe.....do we use these arguments and reasons to justify killing born humans? No.

Its really not different Joe.....same human being....different age.

And if abortion were not legal....I'm convinced we would see a very lowered rate of unplanned pregnancy and probably more sterilization....but no one is ready for that talk. :whistling:

Well society has to be prepared to pay a lot more to have more birthing.

so if you don't want any abortions, you also have to pay for somebody else's children in your taxes regardless of their race or religion, Dovey.

Once the child comes into the world, we're all in it together.
 

Dove

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We already pay for everyone elses children with taxes and why do you feel the need to emphasize race and religion?

I'm sitting here challenging your ageism.....are you assuming I have religious/racail prejudices?

Are you aware of the multiple pro life resources, programs and outreaches we have here that would be VASTLY more beneficial the needs of our communities if they were the ones being promoted and handed all that tax funding in place of PP?

Have you ever asked a woman, as shes walking in(mostly taken by a man, btw) to get abortion information why shes doing it? They almost always say "I have no choice".

Real empowering, yeah?

Maybe instead of lobbying for the funding and promotion of unfettered abortion we should lobbying and promoting some gotdamn paid maternity leave longer than 6 weeks?

The pro choice left talks a big game about helping people but when it comes down it.....its not them out there actually fighting FOR women AND their children or putting any of their resources out there to help buy diapers or formula. Or give rides. Or help with medical or adoption costs or provide housing for that 15 year old whose parents threw her out because she wouldnt abort. I would LOVE to see people who go off about choice and helping the downtrodden take that beyond voting for bullshit that doesnt work and getting out there and trying to stop an obviously coerced abortion or open their own wallets to directly help someone instead of dumping billions....yes I said billions.....into political bullshit like "ActBlue".

I appreciate your points here, I'm sure they are well meaning .....regardless of the almost patronizing tone, but you are talking to someone who has not only been there but actually puts myself out there.

Do you help women in crisis and children? Any families? I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities right now if you have the ability.

I doubt you would tell a struggling family that they should kill their youngest if their youngest was born. If we cannot have compassion and mercy for the most vulnerable Joe.....we have none at all.

Perhaps before taking a side on who gets to live and who is disposable garbage....politics could be shoved to the side and we should reinsert some humanity back into this discussion. That woman will walk out of that abortion clinic with one less tax burden, sure. But she will always be the mother of dead baby. She may end up commiting suicide. Or using drugs. Or experiencing severe pathological grief. Or just hardened.

There is heavy price to pay for this and we are paying for it....and will continue to pay for it. It looks like high levels of depression in women. Break down of the family. Hook up culture. Narcism. Abuse. Abandonment. Devaluing of life.

We have much bigger problems then the price tag, Joe. But if that's your biggest focus, I'm on of the first to give more than I even have. You wouldnt believe how spred thin I've been happy to be to help a baby live.

What have you given? You just think they should go die to make our life easier, really?

What if it were you, Joe? And people wanted to drag you into a kill mill to have you "dealt with"? Wouldnt you want passionate people to plead for your life? To fight for your human right? Would you make these arguments if you were on the chopping block?

We need to stop putting money and convenience over human life. ALL human beings are entitled to basic human rights. If we cannot do the right thing here, than fuck pretending we are doing the right things at all. At the end of the day, we are self indulgent cowards and hypocrites. We are apathetic and selfish.

I pray all the time to be less those things. If we cannot show mercy to the weakest, we dont deserve any mercy ourselves. Biden is probably judgement.
 
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Joe

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We already pay for everyone elses children with taxes and why do you feel the need to emphasize race and religion?

I'm sitting here challenging your ageism.....are you assuming I have religious/racail prejudices?

Are you aware of the multiple pro life resources, programs and outreaches we have here that would be VASTLY more beneficial the needs of our communities if they were the ones being promoted and handed all that tax funding in place of PP?

Have you ever asked a woman, as shes walking in(mostly taken by a man, btw) to get abortion information why shes doing it? They almost always say "I have no choice".

Real empowering, yeah?

Maybe instead of lobbying for the funding and promotion of unfettered abortion we should lobbying and promoting some gotdamn paid maternity leave longer than 6 weeks?

The pro choice left talks a big game about helping people but when it comes down it.....its not them out there actually fighting FOR women AND their children or putting any of their resources out there to help buy diapers or formula. Or give rides. Or help with medical or adoption costs or provide housing for that 15 year old whose parents threw her out because she wouldnt abort.

I appreciate your points here, I'm sure they are well meaning .....regardless of the almost patronizing tone, but you are talking to someone who has not only been there but actually puts myself out there.

Do you help women in crisis and children? Any families? I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities right now if you have the ability.

I doubt you would tell a struggling family that they should kill their youngest if their youngest was born. If we cannot have compassion and mercy for the most vulnerable Joe.....we have none at all.

Yeah, you can't kill a child once it's born.

And that's the whole point.

The cycle of life (and tremendous financial obligation which goes along with it) begins anew once again.

Perhaps you're one of those mainstream small conservative Republicans who are not benefitting from a system which overwhelmingly rewards the wealthy.

But I'm CRITICAL of wealthy and influential Republicans in the party you support who get theirs, want lower taxes, more anti-abortion measures and then also want to cut the benefits of the poor and working mothers and keep their wages low. And they don't seem to think there is any responsibility on their part to help them. As far as they are concerned, more help to these Moms means more taxes. Uh Uh, can't have that. And those kind of people make me really fucking mad.

If society wants women to have more children, they they better be prepared to pay for it.

You may not like my views on abortion or birth control, but at least I'm not a hypocrite. I don't cast aspersions on any woman who wants an abortion, and I especially don't shame they become pregnant and seek social assistance. I think where I live they call that 'poor bashing'.

Also, it's somewhat notable, that at least one place in Canada actually provides state subsidized daycare. That's the province of Quebec. They want more French women to have kids to keep the French culture alive in Canada, so they're wiling to pay for the daycare and programs for Kids.



And I think that's good Because it leads to happier, better adjusted children who end up committing less crime and murders, etc when they grow up. But that really shocks American tourists when I've told them about it. They can't believe that the State would actually provide free daycare for children.

It's somewhat notable in Canada where they don't support the mothers that well, they also have higher crime rates and much higher homicide rates and drug addiction. Probably higher infant mortality rates and even mothers dying as well from underfunded healthcare.

So state socialism can have benefits, even tho some people don't like it.
 

Dove

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We shouldnt be legally able to kill any living human being, period.

THATS the point.

We do NOT have a fundamental right to our life. We are nothing more than a stronger persons choice. Do you not grasp that? You absolutely cannot say you care about MY rights, Joe....not if you would have supported my mother having me dismembered or poisoned and tossed away like a half eaten burger.

Human beings should never be treated as property.

We are paying a heavy price.

And it's not about politics or labels. It's about humanity.

It's all hypocritical to advocate for any socail support if you are behind killing humans. Kinda putting the cart before the horse. There is no meaningful motive to incentivize motherhood and support it if it's just a choice and no one wants to pay for someone elses choice. Its easier to employ women who are not parents and not going to have any family needs, as well.

Js.
 
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Joe

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We shouldnt be legally able to kill any living human being, period.

THATS the point.

We do NOT have a fundamental right to our life. We are nothing more than a stronger persons choice. Do you not grasp that? You absolutely cannot say you care about MY rights, Joe....not if you would have supported my mother having me dismembered or poisoned and tossed away like a half eaten burger.

Human beings should never be treated as property.

We are paying a heavy price.

And it's not about politics or labels. It's about humanity.

It's all hypocritical to advocate for any socail support if you are behind killing humans. Kinda putting the cart before the horse.

Js.

Well, if you want fewer abortion which inevitabley lead to more births, then there has to be more funding for Mothers and children, eh?

That doesn't seem to be something that many in the Republican Party seem to grasp.

These mothers need help, money if we want them to hang on to their children and raise them properly.

Better benefits, higher wages, subsidized daycare, Maternity Leave.

I know that sounds like state socialism, and probably is, but as the saying goes, "It takes a Village."
 

Dove

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Well as I stated, if abortion were off the table...unplanned pregnancies very likely would not be as frequent.

I understand that's a rough topic that pisses off some people.....but its TRUE. Especailly in among those in lower socioeconomic classes where people tend to be less educated and make poor decisions(and that's not hate towards the poor. I absolutely love poor people, I grew up very poor and I'm not exactly wealthy today...albeit we are stable and blessed). I'm just being honest. It does no good to sugar coat.

Take abortion off the table and promote better choices and prevention. And have safety nets for crisis situations. You know how many women and children could be truly helped if we redirected funds to the programs that do that?

Or what we could do for PEOPLE and families with those fucking billions of dollars being dumped into political activism? Political activism that ONLY ever serves the activists, btw.

We dont even have standards of value on human life. So why would people care about meaningful help.

Look at you. Still talking about politics.

You know the biggest fucking blight on the Republican party was when they betrayed all their values and decided Roe.

All those programs you listed sorta exist today but they are shit. And they wont get better.....because it's her choice, she can deal with it. And if she cant? She shouldn't be pregnant. No employer is going to offer paid maternity leave in a shit culture that kills it's very young.

I hope one day you bleeding hearts start meaning it. A great place to start is equal human rights. Standing by while human beings die and saying "these mothers need help" yet not getting out there and helping isnt doing anything. You argue for abortion this way often. We would be able to a lot more if we had even half the support the fucking abortion industry gets. Like yes I know they need help. I see these women everyday.....when are you guys who argue for abortion gonna help?

You wont because you dont have to if they can just abort. You know it's true.

And we need lower costs of living....not just raising minimum wage and destroying more small business.
 
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OP
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The problem of whether it matters that the fetus cannot feel is really philosophical. We see here a consequentialist debating against deontological ethics. However, neither here nor in Congress do they share common ground.
 

Blurt

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Is Dovey talking about abortion again?

Is Joe talking about overpopulation?

I'm going back to bed.

Wake me up when the suction's over.
 

LotusBud

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Covid.

Even if I died of Covid, I'd rather die than harm a defenseless human being.

No dilemma here.

But do you think if a woman aborts a fetus within the first 2 months when it doesn't have a brain steam or central nervous system, that it's OK for her to abort it?

Surely there must be a 'grace period' which can allow a woman to go ahead with a pregnancy or to abort it.


OMG, Joe. Have you never seen Dovey go off about abortion? There's no talking sense to the woman. Impossible. She thinks it's better to allow millions of poor children to die of malnutrition or be killed in wars than for anyone to have an abortion at any time.
 
OP
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I could convince Dove to go left on abortion, but I am not in the business of improving human belief. Rather, I am here to prove it worthless.
 
OP
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I almost regret making this poll. Nobody should have to make this choice during her life. With the right resources, we can do both at once with a single needle. You live in the first world and you must commit to this future.
 

Q

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Hello friends. This is where I submit to you the ultimate dilemma, which we cleverly devised upstairs:

Would you rather be treating a horrible condition that has made you feel like you would rather die, or do you want COVID-19?
Reading through the previous messages, you're trying to compare COVID-19 and having an abortion?

What do the two have in common that you would be able to choose? :Confused:
Anyway, getting COVID-19 is hardly a choice, it's a virus.
Having an abortion can be prevented by using the correct measures (birth control) or having the child in case something went "wrong".
 
OP
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Two choices presented together do not necessarily need to have common ground. This is simply either/or. Please do not confuse abortion with vaccination, and do not assume that COVID-19 will make your life more suitable for children.
 
OP
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Additionally, this dilemma is not here so that you can avoid the option you dislike through good choices. To be clear, you must choose the one you like more.
 

Q

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Additionally, this dilemma is not here so that you can avoid the option you dislike through good choices. To be clear, you must choose the one you like more.
I'll have the abortion. As a man I cannot be pregnant, so no need to do anything :)