Things need to change, 40 hr work week, etc.

[The Prowler]

We have had a 40 hour work week for a hundred years or more.

I do not know the exact numbers, but I am pretty sure that:

- 100 years ago the average family had more children
- 100 years ago it was common to have just the man of the family work while the woman looked after the house

Since that time we have developed greater technology that allows every person to be more productive.


I am going to make some comparisons and observations. Any numbers will be based on averages.

From this chart:

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In 1920, women had an average of 3.17 children each. In 2018, it was 1.73.

So I will use a family in 1920 of a couple with 3 children. And in 2020, a couple with 2 children.

In 1920, a man could work 40 hours in a week and could provide for 5 people. 1 person provides for 5.

In 2020, we commonly have both the husband and wife working 40 hours per week and only providing for 4 people. 1 person provides for 2.

Now, given that we are far more productive than 100 years ago, every worker is making a lot more "stuff". "Stuff" can either be goods or services.

I think conservatively we can estimate that a worker in 2020 is on average twice as efficient as a worker in 1920, with the assistance of technology and technological advancements.

What 1920 showed us is that 1 person can provide for 5 people. So in 2020, with twice the efficiency, 1 worker could provide for 10 people. But what we have is 1 worker providing for only 2 people.

Now we know that people live longer in 2020. So let's say people live 1.5x as long. So in 2020 we can make this correction and say that 1 worker could provide for 6.7 people.

But we still are left with 3.3x the necessary production (1 worker could provide for 6.7 people, but is providing for only 2 people).

That is a lot of excess production.

Now excess production is not necessarily a bad thing. Once we take care of our basic needs, we can then produce goods and services that enhance our quality of life.

So let's look at some of these goods and services that we make to enhance the quality of our lives.

- Electronics, gadgets, etc. that have a short life span

- Traveling, vacations, etc.

- Remodeling, renovating our homes

- Fast food, convenience food, frozen dinners, etc.

I will stop there.


Does anyone see some emerging problems with this model of the 40 hour work week in 2020?

 

[DDT]

Well, what I do know is at the current rate, future generations will have a hard time with one person just providing for themselves the things previous generations could provide for their entire family, such as a car and a house.

 

[Joe]

The 1920s were not as golden as the OP believes. The economy was unstable & wages were poor for most workers . Plus people got sick and died sooner. It was not uncommon to lose 1/2 of one's family due to illness. Men or women often became widows or widowers back then.

Your dollar bought more but life was also a lot harder.

I think the work week was more like 12 hour days 6 days a week than 1 day off at which you were expected to go to Church. So it wasn’t even a free day but involved dressing up the family and forced social gatherings.

And if a man wasn't working then he was conscripted for war and sent into battle.

 

[DDT]

I don't disagree Joe, but things were changing by 1920 already (the roaring 1920's). In fact, Ford doubled his wages six years earlier (1914), and went to the eight hour work day at that same time also...

Then came the 1930's, but that's a different story!

 

[The Prowler]

Before getting derailed and discussing a bunch of things I did not say...please focus on this question.

Does anyone see some emerging problems with this model of the 40 hour work week in 2020?

 

[DDT]

Before getting derailed and discussing a bunch of things I did not say...please focus on this question.

Does anyone see some emerging problems with this model of the 40 hour work week in 2020?

What exactly is your thesis here, and what would you like to discuss? You're not quite clear.

 

[Joe]

I don't disagree Joe, but things were changing by 1920 already (the roaring 1920's). In fact, Ford doubled his wages six years earlier (1914), and went to the eight hour work day at that same time also...

Then came the 1930's, but that's a different story!

Before getting derailed and discussing a bunch of things I did not say...please focus on this question.

Does anyone see some emerging problems with this model of the 40 hour work week in 2020?

New technologies could easily wipE out a lot more jobs where all they'll need are pt workers putting in 10 to 20 hrs per week.

So they become your 'full time jobs' with fewer workers needed in many industries

That could be coming sooner than we think.

But I don't know how a society can afford a guaranteed income with too many people with no jobs.

 

[The Prowler]

What exactly is your thesis here, and what would you like to discuss? You're not quite clear.

The 40 hour work week is an outdated concept/plan that in modern society is problematic. The first step is to recognize some of the problems.

I would like to see if people here can provide some original thought and some insight. If they can, it might lead to an interesting conversation.

I am certainly not interested in discussing "What was it like in the 1920's."

And I am not interested in discussing the entire scope of this subject all at once. People need time to digest things.

 

[DDT]

That's why the younger generation of

The 40 hour work week is an outdated concept/plan that in modern society is problematic. The first step is to recognize some of the problems.

I would like to see if people here can provide some original thought and some insight. If they can, it might lead to an interesting conversation.

I am certainly not interested in discussing "What was it like in the 1920's."

And I am not interested in discussing the entire scope of this subject all at once. People need time to digest things.

So do you suggest a 20 hour week? A 60 hour week?

Start off by listing some of your issues, so we don't have to be Gypsy glass ball mind readers!

 

[Joe]

What exactly is your thesis here, and what would you like to discuss? You're not quite clear.

The 40 hour work week is an outdated concept/plan that in modern society is problematic. The first step is to recognize some of the problems.

I would like to see if people here can provide some original thought and some insight. If they can, it might lead to an interesting conversation.

I am certainly not interested in discussing "What was it like in the 1920's."

And I am not interested in discussing the entire scope of this subject all at once. People need time to digest things.

Probably more self employment coming.

 

[The Prowler]

Does anyone see some emerging problems with this model of the 40 hour work week in 2020?

New technologies could easily wipE out a lot more jobs where all they'll need are pt workers putting in 10 to 20 hrs per week.

So they become your 'full time jobs' 20th fewer workers needed in many industries

So the problem is "not enough work" which would result in either "high unemployment" (if a 40 hour work week is maintained) or "part time employees" (if the same percentage of people remain employed).

Does that sound right?

But I don't know how a society can afford a guaranteed income with too many people with no jobs.

Please do not go off on tangents. We are far from discussing any comprehensive solutions.

 

[Joe]

Trouble is the new generation doesnt wanna work at the old jobs anymore. The biggest growth industries are drugs like pot. Lotta pot shops. More than fast food joints.

That's our new economy. Recreational drugs. Trading in crypto currency

 

[The Prowler]

So do you suggest a 20 hour week? A 60 hour week?

Start off by listing some of your issues, so we don't have to be Gypsy glass ball mind readers!

I am not interested in discussing possible solutions until there is some effort put forth to identify problems. I am not asking anyone to read my mind. I am hoping that people will be able to use their own minds.

 

[The Prowler]

Trouble is the new generation doesnt wanna work at the old jobs anymore. The biggest growth industries are drugs like pot. Lotta pot shops. More than fast food joints.

That's our new economy. Recreational drugs. Trading in crypto currency

This is another tangent.

Try to focus on the 40 hour work week.

 

[Joe]

Does anyone see some emerging problems with this model of the 40 hour work week in 2020?

New technologies could easily wipE out a lot more jobs where all they'll need are pt workers putting in 10 to 20 hrs per week.

So they become your 'full time jobs' 20th fewer workers needed in many industries

So the problem is "not enough work" which would result in either "high unemployment" (if a 40 hour work week is maintained) or "part time employees" (if the same percentage of people remain employed).

Some industries affected by automation will require fewer workers but others like healthcare may require more.

So work hours may rise for some like healthcare but fall for others such as office work.

The no hours won't be universal or the same for different industries.

 

[DDT]

Trouble is the new generation doesnt wanna work at the old jobs anymore. The biggest growth industries are drugs like pot. Lotta pot shops. More than fast food joints.

That's our new economy. Recreational drugs. Trading in crypto currency

I could afford to pay you $40/hour to drive my gravel truck around in circles, but I won't...

And I agree that the new generation are lost... Unless they wan't to get their hands dirty (which they don't), I don't know what they'll do other than colour their hair and fight for social justice!

 

[Joe]

Healthcare requires a lot of manpower so it's workweek should remain steady

 

[The Prowler]

Some industries affected by automation will require fewer workers but others like healthcare may require more.

So work hours may rise for some like healthcare but fall for others such as office work.

We have already seen greater technological advancements in some segments, but we maintain a 40 hour work week. For instance, less workers are now required to manufacture cars as robotics have reduced the demand for workers. But we still use the 40 hour work week.

So if more manpower is needed in healthcare, in the 40 hour work week system, we fill those needs with workers who work a 40 hour work week.

Healthcare requires a lot of manpower so it's workweek should remain steady

I am really hoping some people can come up with "problems with the 40 hour work week".

Joe, maybe you can sit back and see if others can think of some.

So far you have come up with "not enough work to employ the number of workers".

Let us give others a chance to answer.

 

[The Prowler]

Maybe this will stimulate some thought.

We could try to classify different forms of production this way:

1) Basic Needs - things like food, shelter, basic clothing

2) Life Enhancing Goods - things like entertainment products, a fancy house, designer clothing; products you own

3) Life Enhancing Services - things like theaters, gyms, swimming pools, vacation resorts; services you experience


Given that we are so much more productive, and if we maintain the workforce and a 40 hour work week, we should be able to produce a great proportion of Life Enhancing Goods and Life Enhancing Services. In other words, our Basic Needs are met with less labour, so any excess labour can produce Life Enhancing Goods and Services.

Do we see any problems with producing more Life Enhancing Goods or Life Enhancing Services?

 

[Breakfall]

Healthcare requires a lot of manpower so it's workweek should remain steady

Private healthcare is the way to go if you value your life. Can’t afford it? Then work harder...it’s as simple as that!

 

[Lokmar]

The 1920s were not as golden as the OP believes. The economy was unstable & wages were poor for most workers . Plus people got sick and died sooner. It was not uncommon to lose 1/2 of one's family due to illness. Men or women often became widows or widowers back then.

Your dollar bought more but life was also a lot harder.

I think the work week was more like 12 hour days 6 days a week than 1 day off at which you were expected to go to Church. So it wasn’t even a free day but involved dressing up the family and forced social gatherings.

And if a man wasn't working then he was conscripted for war and sent into battle.

My great grandfather was an auto mechanic in the 20's and made the equivalent of $120,000/yr in todays money. He owned 2 cars and my great grandma didnt work. STFU josephine. Maybe you came from a family of fukin rag picking bums, but I didnt.

 

[The Prowler]

We still follow the 40 hour work week model, yet we are significantly more productive than when it was developed 100 years ago.

Which simply means we are creating excess. Excess goods. Excess service.

Nobody can identify what problems this could create? Just spitball some ideas?

I am a little surprised.

I know it is unlikely that your will find this subject being discussed anywhere else, so you will have to have to rely on your own brain to formulate ideas, which can be a little intimidating. But it might feel good to have some original thought. You will not know unless you try.

 

[The Prowler]

Lily the Leaker has expressed her lack of desire to exercise her brain and expose us to her inner thoughts.

Thank God.

Hahaha!!!

 

[DDT]

Sort of on topic here. Had some plumbing work done today... Don't ever knock the trades... Can almost set your own price around here! $298/hour for a plumber and his helper...

 

[Joe]

The 1920s were not as golden as the OP believes. The economy was unstable & wages were poor for most workers . Plus people got sick and died sooner. It was not uncommon to lose 1/2 of one's family due to illness. Men or women often became widows or widowers back then.

Your dollar bought more but life was also a lot harder.

I think the work week was more like 12 hour days 6 days a week than 1 day off at which you were expected to go to Church. So it wasn’t even a free day but involved dressing up the family and forced social gatherings.

And if a man wasn't working then he was conscripted for war and sent into battle.

My great grandfather was an auto mechanic in the 20's and made the equivalent of $120,000/yr in todays money. He owned 2 cars and my great grandma didnt work. STFU josephine. Maybe you came from a family of fukin rag picking bums, but I didnt.

As I told you in a previous post Lokmeer.

Life was probably very good for skilled mechanics 100 years ago.

They were equivalent of today's cutting/leading edge hi tech workers.

the car was considered new technology and the novelty hadn't worn off.

If your grandfather were alive today, with his technical acuman, he would likely be some hi tech worker in Silicon Valle making 6 figures. Different times, but transferable skills. But kids typically chasing the the Big Bucks and high skilled jobs these days don't usually gravitate towards being a mechanic anymore. Though I'm aware that some of those jobs pay very well such as heavy mechanics or automotive electricians.

The typical mechanic today doesn't enjoy the status they did back then because cars have been around a while, and the social status of a mechanic is much lower than it once was at the turn of the 20th century.

The Car was once the driving force of the American economy in the 1920s.

It was like the computer of today.

But it isn't anymore, hence the relative fall in status of yesteryear's Car mechanic.

 

[Frood]

It's all about what people value, their resistance to change, and the vacuums which not as free as you think markets have increasingly grown.

Technology, regulation, and innovation no longer drive better conditions...

They make deficits and human suffering....

 

[DDT]

One of the biggest problems (and I know I'll catch some flak for this), is the downfall of strong unionization rates, in North America at least.

There's plenty of private sector employers, especially large ones, that could pay better, offer better working conditions, and throw in a few benefits too. But they won't, because they don't have to.

I lean to the right in almost all areas, but I do believe that a hard working and dedicated man or woman should be treated fairly in the workplace, and paid fairly in the workplace. Unfortunately the free market doesn't always dictate this properly, especially when employers are permitted to abuse foreign workers to undercut the local population of employees.

 

[The Prowler]

Sort of on topic here. Had some plumbing work done today... Don't ever knock the trades... Can almost set your own price around here! $298/hour for a plumber and his helper...

I think plumbers do pretty well. That is one profession that probably has not benefited greatly with technology over the past 100 years. Maybe a bit, with some better components and tools, but not to the same degree as other professions that benefit more from automation or computer processing.

So if society got smart and went to a 32 hour work week, we would need more plumbers. Better than flipping burgers for a living, and a lot more pay.

 

[DDT]

Trades is a good way to go, since I just paid a plumber almost Attorney rates!

Unfortunately our educational system doesn't guide students down this path very well. They focus more on social justice and other left wing bullshit, than preparing a kid for real work for real money.

 

[Frood]

One of the biggest problems (and I know I'll catch some flak for this), is the downfall of strong unionization rates, in North America at least.

There's plenty of private sector employers, especially large ones, that could pay better, offer better working conditions, and throw in a few benefits too. But they won't, because they don't have to.

I lean to the right in almost all areas, but I do believe that a hard working and dedicated man or woman should be treated fairly in the workplace, and paid fairly in the workplace. Unfortunately the free market doesn't always dictate this properly, especially when employers are permitted to abuse foreign workers to undercut the local population of employees.

The free market isn't free.... otherwise people could do better. The free market is in name only. It's actually a highly socialised bastardized model that squeezes everybody.

Unions, bureaucrats, and big business are responsible for that.