All kidding aside, this Condo Collapse is a horrible tragedy.

Oerdin

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All posturing by politicians aside, it's been well-known for decades that you can't load Florida soil with that kind of weight since there's no bedrock under it. And it's also been noted by some engineers and other interested parties that this building was in trouble, years ago.

Any public statements of surprise from the mayor or the governor or even the president, about this catastrophe are just gaslighting, or maybe worse, indications of dumbfuckery.

You realize you don't have to drive pilons down to bed rock, right? The geologist or civil engineer can legally declare that firm competitent ground has been reached based upon the hammer blow count it takes to drive the pilon 1 mm. All the civils I have worked with want to be extra cautious doing that though so even though the law requires say five consecutive counts exceeding the engineer's specification we would usually demand 10 consecutive counts just to be extra sure. None of our projects have failed in the last 20 years so I guess we have done well.

I'd imagine, not being an engineer myself, that "firm competent ground" might stop being available once you reach the water table. What can you tell us about the water table in south Florida, or the entire Gulf Coast for that matter?

I have never worked in Florida or the gulf coast so I can't speak to that. You can indeed get firm competent ground below the water table as the measurement is usually how hard it is to hammer a pilon a given distance deeper into ground. One area which might cause problems is that water fills void spaces between the sediments so if someone over pumps ground water that void space opens up. That could cause for.erly firm competent ground to no longer be so. Another issue could be salt water intrusion and its effects on pilons.

One of my first jobs out of college was on a job site in Long Beach, CA right on the waterfront next to the Queen Mary. It was counting hammer blow counts as they drove pilons into the sand so they could build a new waterfront shopping and dinning area over the shore line. Talk about boring as hell.
 

Oerdin

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All posturing by politicians aside, it's been well-known for decades that you can't load Florida soil with that kind of weight since there's no bedrock under it. And it's also been noted by some engineers and other interested parties that this building was in trouble, years ago.

I wonder how many other Florida buildings are in similar situation.

Must be a lot of them.

If they don't reinforce them all soon, there could be many more of these disasters coming.
according to an interview I heard on BBC this morning, this building has an identical twin one block over, same developer, same contractor, same plans same material, the residents are not comfortable.

I'd be outta there so fast, with a lawsuit filed soon after.

It will depend upon what the state laws say. In California builder liability is capped at 20 years and in some cases just 10 years. I don't know anything about the laws in Florida but it may be hard to prove liability 40 years later. Now, if someone bought after the subsidence issue was found in the 1990's but the seller didn't disclose that to the buyers that might be an issue.

Well, they're suing the condo association.

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It is not like the condo association has deep pockets and all they can do it take money from the condo owners. It does sound like the association does have liability as well though as it paid for the 2018 engineering report but then never acted on it. Probably due to lack of money.
 

Joe

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All posturing by politicians aside, it's been well-known for decades that you can't load Florida soil with that kind of weight since there's no bedrock under it. And it's also been noted by some engineers and other interested parties that this building was in trouble, years ago.

I wonder how many other Florida buildings are in similar situation.

Must be a lot of them.

If they don't reinforce them all soon, there could be many more of these disasters coming.

I will wait to hear more after an investigation but often stuff that holds up for 40 years was well done but that the geologic or water conditions changed over 40 years. I.E. one explanation could be ground water levels went up or down thus changing some of the facts assumed to exist when the Civil engineer made his calculations back in 1981. Another issue might have been salt water intrusion and how that salt water effected the chosen pilon design; I.E. did it start corrosion?

Then there are possible maintenance issue or defective materials used, etc... There are many possibilities. About the only thing we know for sure is as far back as the 1990's the building was tilting due to uneven subsidence.

Obviously it's because democrats dont run Florida. Come on, man.

I think this story has less to do with which party runs a state than a widespread problem which will have ramifications for the building industry and standards in the United States.

However, Florida will feel the brunt of it that they've been too lax on building inspections and standards for too long.

To that note we have the information from a 2018 structural assessment.

""The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas," the report reads. "Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially.""

That assessment done by a licensed engineering team identitied two main problems. 1) Water damage to the structural supports caused by a leaking swimming pool, old leaking water and sewer pipes with in the building, as well as water damage seeping into the concrete and steel subfloor from the outside balconies. 2) Subsidence which seems to be effecting the entire area though in an unequal and non uniform manner. That would hint at either a geologic or hydrologic origin to the subsidence issue which may or may not be compounded by engineering choices for structural foundations dating back to 1981.

So two big hints but no clear answers as yet.

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Some interesting comments which followed the article:

I predict that over the next few years, many, many of these seaside buildings will be deemed unsuitable, and will be torn down. Insurance rates in Florida are about to go through the roof.

When I lived down there 2017-2018 they were tearing off balconies because they were collapsing due to the cement being mixed with salt water during construction. This rusted out the rebar reinforcement and the concrete became very weak. Probably same technique used in the rest of the construction. Just saying. Only a matter of time until many more buildings of that era meet the same fate.

Again it’s more than salt damage when you fill in a wetland and build a building on it and disregard how much it settles. It had to have had a lot of stress between the columns that held it up and together with the sandy soil on the oceans and the boggy soil under the street front a push and pull situation… super sad and could and most likely will happen again to other similar structures. The engineers need to be honest it may have been a foundation settlement issue that many buildings can and probably do have.
 

Oerdin

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I doubt anyone mixed sea water with concrete as the sodium corrosion would have been apparent with in 3-5 years and all the concrete test cylinders would have failed theor break tests immediately.

Failure of the water barrier remains my leading hypothesis as that is what was identified by the engineering inspectors in the 2018 report.
 

LotusBud

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All posturing by politicians aside, it's been well-known for decades that you can't load Florida soil with that kind of weight since there's no bedrock under it. And it's also been noted by some engineers and other interested parties that this building was in trouble, years ago.

I wonder how many other Florida buildings are in similar situation.

Must be a lot of them.

If they don't reinforce them all soon, there could be many more of these disasters coming.
according to an interview I heard on BBC this morning, this building has an identical twin one block over, same developer, same contractor, same plans same material, the residents are not comfortable.

I'd be outta there so fast, with a lawsuit filed soon after.

It will depend upon what the state laws say. In California builder liability is capped at 20 years and in some cases just 10 years. I don't know anything about the laws in Florida but it may be hard to prove liability 40 years later. Now, if someone bought after the subsidence issue was found in the 1990's but the seller didn't disclose that to the buyers that might be an issue.

Well, they're suing the condo association.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It is not like the condo association has deep pockets and all they can do it take money from the condo owners. It does sound like the association does have liability as well though as it paid for the 2018 engineering report but then never acted on it. Probably due to lack of money.

Well, obviously there would have to be liability for these people to realize any money. That's where insurance comes in.
 

LotusBud

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Family reunification center

The town is hosting those who are waiting for information about unaccounted relatives at the Grand Beach Hotel Surfside, at 9449 Collins Ave. Levine Cava said there are two daily briefings for relatives.

553943_16072702250044961686.jpg
 

Oerdin

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Supposedly the pool completely drained from a new hole in the bottom just before the building partly collapsed. It seems the water liner was the cause and that the leak had been going on for years, probably decades getting progressively worse and rotting the structure.

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Jeannie

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue
 

LotusBud

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Supposedly the pool completely drained from a new hole in the bottom just before the building partly collapsed. It seems the water liner was the cause and that the leak had been going on for years, probably decades getting progressively worse and rotting the structure.

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That's just so tragic. 100% preventable.
 

LotusBud

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.
 

Jeannie

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well if they find anyone alive at this point they will make a movie about it - 'miracle in miami'
 

Joe

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.

Never buy into or even near a high rise anywhere in Florida no matter if they tell you it safe.

Florida is only suitable for 1 story beach homes.

That's what this episode reinforced or taught me.

You were a teacher at one time, weren't you?

Learn by example, eh.
 

Adam Hitler

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.

Never buy into or even near a high rise anywhere in Florida no matter if they tell you it safe.

Florida is only suitable for 1 story beach homes.

That's what this episode reinforced or taught me.

You were a teacher at one time, weren't you?

Learn by example, eh.

She was a canteen kitchen worker.
 

Joe

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.

Never buy into or even near a high rise anywhere in Florida no matter if they tell you it safe.

Florida is only suitable for 1 story beach homes.

That's what this episode reinforced or taught me.

You were a teacher at one time, weren't you?

Learn by example, eh.

She was a canteen kitchen worker.

Well I don't see it as a political issue, Aryan.

More about building houses on unsuitable land.

BTW, there's a lotta Brits living in Florida.

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Around 700,000 British expats live in the U.S., and a huge chunk of that population has chosen to reside in Florida. By the estimates of the British consulate in Orlando, approximately 400,000 British expats are in the state. But what makes Florida so attractive to the Brits?

I was a bit surprised when I visited the place.

You might actually feel at home there.

I bet there's entire towns or at least city blocks full of ex-pat Brits in Florida.

...Maybe in parts like Britain...but with the nice weather, eh.
 
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Joe

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Florida is great from what I hear. California, Oregon etc, not so much.

Florida is a s nice place to visit, but I don't think I'd wanna live there.

Plus like any place, you have to choose a good area.

Some places are kinda rough.

While Key West looked like Paradise, places like Fort Lauderdale & the poorer parts of Miami are shitholes.

And the Police have gave this good ole boys southern attitude.

You can get into trouble with them over a simple traffic violation.

Even a lily White person such as yourself.

Little wonder so many people hate the police in the States, epecially down there.
 

LotusBud

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.

Never buy into or even near a high rise anywhere in Florida no matter if they tell you it safe.

Florida is only suitable for 1 story beach homes.

That's what this episode reinforced or taught me.

You were a teacher at one time, weren't you?

Learn by example, eh.

Learn what by example? I would never live in one of those high rises, either. Nor would I ever live in Florida. Not sure what you're point is.
 

LotusBud

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They knew everyone was already dead I guess.

Well, everyone was probably dead. But they were searching nonetheless. The point is, they didn't want to risk rescuers' lives. Why would they? That would just have increased the death count without saving anyone. That would have heaped tragedy on tragedy.
 

Joe

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.

Never buy into or even near a high rise anywhere in Florida no matter if they tell you it safe.

Florida is only suitable for 1 story beach homes.

That's what this episode reinforced or taught me.

You were a teacher at one time, weren't you?

Learn by example, eh.

Learn what by example? I would never live in one of those high rises, either. Nor would I ever live in Florida. Not sure what you're point is.

Oh. I think of it as just another real life example to avoid.

LIkewise, we have these houses where I live built on what used to be farmland.

Well...every year the snow melts, the water floods the Valley where the houses are located and their basements get filled with rain and turn into mud. Of course they should never have built in those places to begin with. It was meant for growing crops not building houses on.
 

Lokmar

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wheres the bucket-brigade? the pace of this is outrageous

they were so careful that now its a recovery, not a rescue

Have you SEEN pictures of how that building just pancaked? No reason to get rescuers killed in the process.

Never buy into or even near a high rise anywhere in Florida no matter if they tell you it safe.

Florida is only suitable for 1 story beach homes.

That's what this episode reinforced or taught me.

You were a teacher at one time, weren't you?

Learn by example, eh.
OH NOES! My daughter and son in law just built a 2 story McMansion just minutes from Disney! Hope they make it!
 

Oerdin

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It is looking more and more like 40 years of not doing regular repair and maintenance because owners didn't want to pay the needed increased HOA fees it cost. So problems built up and built up.

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