Traditional electoralism is useless

[Garraty_47]

how is it rigged in my ideologies favor?

Take the last 50 years of presidential elections as a bucket and let's start with Jimmy carter

Jimmy carter 4 years democrat
Ronald reagan 8 years republican
George BUsh 4 years republican
BIll clinton 8 years democrat
George bush jr 8 years republican
Barack Obama 8 years democrat
Donald Trump 4 years republican
Joe BIden 4 years democrat

Essentially from 1977 to now we've had a total of 28 years of republican and 24 years of Democrat leadership. That looks pretty near even to me.

Now lets look at the numbers if we went with Lotusbirdbrain's mob rule philosophy. We'd come up with 16 years of republican leadership as a opposed to 32 years of democrats holding the presidential office. The obvious bias and why vermin scum like lotus want to dissolve the electoral college so badly becomes even more apparent when you take into consideration that from 2008 onward the popular majority has favored democrats exclusively.

Coincidence that this popular majority leaning in favor of democrat scum is happening right around the time of the tech dominance over what we see, hear and read? I think not. People are being programmed and they know it and now they want a system which will allow for their programmatic efforts to pay in dividends. The data and obvious history here do not lie my friend.

With numbers like these You'd hardly be able to make a case for the electoral college being "rigged" by any standard unless you filed in some Kangaroo court presided over by a complete imbecile like Lotus or seamoron.

I on the other hand can most certainly make a case for a "rigged" election when you had a mysterious pandemic being released by a lab on an election year. Which very conveniently changed voting rules in the majority of battleground states which resulted in a mummy who never left his basement getting more popular votes than any president in history. A significant portion of those votes just pouring in during the wee hours of the morning in key battleground states under very questionable circumstance.

So, my friend, there certainly is some "rigging" going on, we have no debate there but it most certainly has nothing to do with the tenants of the electoral college.

The electoral college doesn't decide senate or house races, only the presidency.
State representatives wouldn't be affected in any event.

The electoral college is an archaic and pointless mechanism that only needlessly complicates presidential elections.

The electoral college process feeds into a presidential campaign system that relies on securing a few key areas while completely ignoring vast numbers of the voters themselves. It's engineered to be exactly the things you say direct voting would be (but wouldn't): unfair and biased.

The electoral college is akin to the democrats' "superdelegate" bullshit on a grander scale.

You're only mad because you presume getting rid of it will result in even more democrats winning presidential races but that's not an argument for perpetuating a flawed election mechanism. That's merely partisan rancor at a *potential* outcome for no reason other than being partisan.

I fully support hand-marked paper in-person voting.
I've always said the electronic voting machines that don't even provide a receipt for fuck's sake are a stupid idea.

But that's a separate issue. We shouldn't get caught up in trying to fix one broken thing by patching it with another broken thing that will need its own patch etc. etc.

That way leads to monumental clusterfucks. Always.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

Not really. I don’t scream bloody murder when the electoral college produces a democrat president. I accept the outcome as long as the accepted system is handled with proper integrity

The data doesn’t lie my friend

 

[Garraty_47]

Not really. I don’t scream bloody murder when the electoral college produces a democrat president. I accept the outcome as long as the accepted system is handled with proper integrity

That's the whole problem though... a broken/flawed process by definition lacks integrity.

 

[LotusBud]

Not really. I don’t scream bloody murder when the electoral college produces a democrat president. I accept the outcome as long as the accepted system is handled with proper integrity

The data doesn’t lie my friend

When in your lifetime did the Republican win the majority of votes but the Democratic candidate won the electoral college? If that had ever happened, which it did not, you'd be losing your bloody shit about it, still. Guaranteed.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

That's the whole problem though... a broken/flawed process by definition lacks integrity.

I’d be open to another system provided it’s solid and unbiased

The historical data shows clearly the popular vote is not that system

 

[Biggie Smiles]

When in your lifetime did the Republican win the majority of votes but the Democratic candidate won the electoral college? If that had ever happened, which it did not, you'd be losing your bloody shit about it, still. Guaranteed.

Prove that you batty old dumb windbag

 

[Garraty_47]

I’d be open to another system provided it’s solid and unbiased

The historical data shows clearly the popular vote is not that system

I'd rather a system that allows expression of the actual will of the people than any sort of nanny construct that tries to give people what the establishment claims they "need" instead of what they want. When you bake in authoritarianism it's never going to end well.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I'd rather a system that allows expression of the actual will of the people than any sort of nanny construct that tries to give people what the establishment claims they "need" instead of what they want. When you bake in authoritarianism it's never going to end well.

That might make sense if Cali and New York fell into the ocean tomorrow but until then I’m not open to a bunch of liberal shitbags as dumb or dumber than lotus controlling elections for the next 1000 years

Now maybe if there were some kind of prerequisite testing on current issues before being permitted to vote I’d be amenable

But until then there are too many assholes like Seamajor and lotus in this country not to want some kind of balance designed to neutralize their gross stupidity

 

[Garraty_47]

That might make sense if Cali and New York fell into the ocean tomorrow but until then I’m not open to a bunch of liberal shitbags as dumb or dumber than lotus controlling elections for the next 1000 years

Now maybe if there were some kind of prerequisite testing on current issues before being permitted to vote I’d be amenable

But until then there are too many assholes like Seamajor and lotus in this country not to want some kind of balance designed to neutralize their gross stupidity

If I started excluding everyone I thought was too dim, propagandized, or apathetic to vote properly there would only be about a dozen of us left and I'd still be contemplating flipping the switch on nine or ten of them.

/shrug

 

[Biggie Smiles]

If I started excluding everyone I thought was too dim, propagandized, or apathetic to vote properly there would only be about a dozen of us left and I'd still be contemplating flipping the switch on nine or ten of them.

/shrug

I’d rather see 5 people who are knowledgeable voting than 200 million morons like sea and lotus

 

[cw_]

I wouldn't do away with the electoral college based on the idea that it doesn't reflect the popular vote. The electoral college count uses both state by state popular vote count, and state population count (census data;sometimes flawed).

Also, fairly recent Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 41% as Independent - and California, Texas, Florida, and New York are the top 4 states with largest population.

 

[cw_]

Also +, the US is not a democracy. It is a constitutional federal republic.

 

[Garraty_47]

Also +, the US is not a democracy. It is a constitutional federal republic.

On paper, yes.
Functionally it's an oligarchy (or plutocracy, kleptocracy, corporatocracy, whatever you want to call it).

The establishment isn't going to reform itself and it definitely isn't going to cede power willingly so first things first: the people have to seize control for themselves. It's the only way to fundamentally change anything.

 

[X]

That might make sense if Cali and New York fell into the ocean tomorrow but until then I’m not open to a bunch of liberal shitbags as dumb or dumber than lotus controlling elections for the next 1000 years

Now maybe if there were some kind of prerequisite testing on current issues before being permitted to vote I’d be amenable

But until then there are too many assholes like Seamajor and lotus in this country not to want some kind of balance designed to neutralize their gross stupidity

 

[Seamajor]

That might make sense if Cali and New York fell into the ocean tomorrow but until then I’m not open to a bunch of liberal shitbags as dumb or dumber than lotus controlling elections for the next 1000 years

Now maybe if there were some kind of prerequisite testing on current issues before being permitted to vote I’d be amenable

But until then there are too many assholes like Seamajor and lotus in this country not to want some kind of balance designed to neutralize their gross stupidity

I’d rather see 5 people who are knowledgeable voting than 200 million morons like sea and lotus

What does LB and I have to do it, outside of voting for who we choose. Morons? Shit can this thread. Thanks Stumpy.

 

[cw_]

On paper, yes.
Functionally it's an oligarchy (or plutocracy, kleptocracy, corporatocracy, whatever you want to call it).

The establishment isn't going to reform itself and it definitely isn't going to cede power willingly so first things first: the people have to seize control for themselves. It's the only way to fundamentally change anything.

I want to call it a Plutocracy. You are correct that people are the solution. Happily there are people who function with integrity even when their systems do not.
Getting the corrupting money out of it would go a long way toward improving that system. Money shouldn't vote.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Geographic areas don't vote.
People do.

Either every vote counts equally or the whole thing is a scam.

Every vote counts is vulnerable to having the system gamed by things like immigration or manipulating voter age or rights.
Districting reduces that.

 

[X]

I want to call it a Plutocracy. You are correct that people are the solution. Happily there are people who function with integrity even when their systems do not.
Getting the corrupting money out of it would go a long way toward improving that system. Money shouldn't vote.

smart and SASSY !!

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I’ve provided clear and factual data which is irrefutable to sustain my position that the electoral college, despite being imperfect, has produced even handed results consistently over a considerable timeframe referenced as a sample

I’ve demonstrated how majority voting in our constitutional republic would have produced the opposite across the same span of time

Again. My data is historical fact devoid of hyperbole

Now if you want to discuss the influencing of politicians through sleazy oligarchs we can have that discussion. But that discussion has ZERO to do with the tenets of the electoral college as a system

The electoral college is all that stands in the way of the rest of the country becoming California

And the two idiots who fled California but want that outcome anyway are proof positive of what I’m talking about

 

[Garraty_47]

The electoral college is all that stands in the way of the rest of the country becoming California

What is that if not hyperbole?
We elect presidents... not kings.
Not that democrats and republicans govern much differently once elected.

Even the most commonly referenced example of Trump being "different" from other presidents is the fact that he didn't start new wars like the rest have. Not something he *did* do. Something he *didn't* do. Because Trump, like our other presidents, for the most part continued and/or expanded existing policy.

The gaming of the electoral college system by both democrats and republicans contributes to this merging of the parties into a duopoly because they are both focused on winning the electoral college, not on winning over the voters more generally.

Whether or not the electoral college once served a valid purpose currently it is just another problem.

You don't want democrats to get more "wins".
That's cool. A totally normal attitude for someone not on Team Democrat.

But in my opinion that's still subjective, a bit myopic, and reliant on extrapolations based in partisan rancor- not empirical data.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

Democrats already have the popular vote in the bag. Otherwise they wouldn’t be whining about the electoral college being evil in the first place

 

[Seamajor]

Fatso didn’t seem to mind

 

[Garraty_47]

Democrats already have the popular vote in the bag. Otherwise they wouldn’t be whining about the electoral college being evil in the first place

I couldn't care less why democrats whine about anything.
My position on the electoral college hasn't changed since the 1980s, when I started really paying attention to political issues.

But you're still making "the democrats get more votes" out to be a bad thing when it's just a thing. We're well past it mattering if there's red shit or blue shit piled up in the oval office. That only has any impact on the election win/loss scorecard the duopoly pretends is important but it's really only a distraction like identity politics, petty intrigues, and the constant war drums.

The duopoly is finished.
Not tomorrow; probably not even next year.
But they're done. The empire is crumbling under the weight of all their corruption and the lies the duopoly has been hurling at the 'Murican public for decades.

Flawed processes like the electoral college will only prolong the collapse and cause more suffering for regular folk. The oligarchs and the professional managerial class will be just fine as always. They're international: when shit gets too real in one country they just hop on their private jets and go somewhere that doesn't have angry mobs howling for their blood. They don't give any fucks about any particular country because they don't have to; it doesn't even make sense for them to think that way.

I can't get hung up on what's good or bad for either half of the duopoly...
...I want to relegate them both to the dustbin of history.

Now *THAT* would be progress.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I couldn't care less why democrats whine about anything.
My position on the electoral college hasn't changed since the 1980s, when I started really paying attention to political issues.

But you're still making "the democrats get more votes" out to be a bad thing when it's just a thing. We're well past it mattering if there's red shit or blue shit piled up in the oval office. That only has any impact on the election win/loss scorecard the duopoly pretends is important but it's really only a distraction like identity politics, petty intrigues, and the constant war drums.

The duopoly is finished.
Not tomorrow; probably not even next year.
But they're done. The empire is crumbling under the weight of all their corruption and the lies the duopoly has been hurling at the 'Murican public for decades.

Flawed processes like the electoral college will only prolong the collapse and cause more suffering for regular folk. The oligarchs and the professional managerial class will be just fine as always. They're international: when shit gets too real in one country they just hop on their private jets and go somewhere that doesn't have angry mobs howling for their blood. They don't give any fucks about any particular country because they don't have to; it doesn't even make sense for them to think that way.

I can't get hung up on what's good or bad for either half of the duopoly...
...I want to relegate them both to the dustbin of history.

Now *THAT* would be progress.

I don't disagree that both sides are shit. At this point it's only a best out of the worst sort of thing, but the electoral college is not to blame for that. Like I've pointed out the electoral college may be rigged but certainly not in a way where it is a foregone conclusion that a certain party will be elected each and every time. My data proved that rather conclusively

My data also proved that had we gone with the majority vote in a system as broken as ours we'd have elected nothing but democrats from 2008 onward, with each passing year those democrats becoming bolder and bolder as they realize they cannot lose. Under such a circumstance we'd be Venezuela by now.


THIS is what I am looking to avoid. I have no qualms saying the entire two party system is broken, nor am I saying the system is perfect as is. I'm not even saying that Trump is the best man for the job to get us out of this mess.

What I'm saying is - democrats have spent billions investing in propaganda efforts to mind control morons like the ones you see posting on this site. They'll happily vote blue no matter who without so much as a modicum of effort investigating the truth or the ideologies of the candidate they are picking. You'd be lying if you said this wasn't as obvious as the sun shining in the sky.

So how do you curtail that when the historical data PROVES beyond any level of doubt that democrats would be the prevailing party from 2008 onward had we adopted a majority based voting system?

I say, fix the broken propaganda machine. Educate voters on the realities of what they are voting for and the ramifications it has. Remove the corporate money entirely. Make campaigning a tax payer funded event with EQUAL amounts of resources going to promote ALL sides including independent , green etc etc. All ideas and proposals need to be heard and understood equally in something as important as a presidential election. Make sure philosophies are both heard and hopefully understood. Require testing on the part of potential voters before EACH election cycle. REMOVE the guardrails which make a third party run detrimental to one side and invoke some kind of runoff in an event where a third party demonstrates the ability to capture a certain threshold of the vote.

And yes, I am saying that absolute assholes like sea and lotus should be barred from voting until they've properly pulled their stupid looking cone heads out of their dirty assholes. Hell, I wouldn't be comfortable letting those two vote for the location of a lemonade stand let alone have a say in the next leader of the free world.

These are things which MUST happen if we are to move to any kind of majority based voting philosophy.. otherwise you have about 6 or 7 highly populous states pumping out complete imbeciles like sewage and lotus pushing the button TikTok tells them to push

I'm sorry, but I am not comfortable with 100 million idiots who say "trump is a racist" and then dick around with fancy phrases to skirt their own lack of knowledge when asked to provide just ONE example of this overt racism they are screeching about.

Or, take for instance these assholes who parrot on about Florida banning the word gay anywhere in the state because they are too irretrievably stupid to read a simple seven page document for themselves to learn the fucking thing doesn't even have the word gay or any related term in it.

Nope. Sorry. There must be a mitigating factor to keep such obnoxious stupidity from taking an unshakable hold on our destiny and while it's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination the electoral college, as history has shown already, is the only thing standing in the way of these idiots gripping total and unmitigated domination

 

[Garraty_47]

The person with the most votes winning is only "broken" if we don't like the result?

What's the alternative...
...Monarchy? Theocracy? Dictatorship? Military junta?

It doesn't matter if the system is allegedly being manipulated for "a good cause"; that manipulation will always be turned into a tool of suppression and monopolistic outcomes because systems designed to be manipulated do not have integrity.

Someone said: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and that's doubly true in politics.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

It is what it is then.

I truly don’t give a fuck what must be done to keep liberal scumbags from gaining complete dominance.

I’d even be for mass executions of vermi like sea and lotus without hesitation

Call it what you want. I call it perserving the closest thing to decent we have at this point

They pushed us here

 

[LotusBud]

I wouldn't do away with the electoral college based on the idea that it doesn't reflect the popular vote. The electoral college count uses both state by state popular vote count, and state population count (census data;sometimes flawed).

Also, fairly recent Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 41% as Independent - and California, Texas, Florida, and New York are the top 4 states with largest population.

So, in other words, without the unfair advantage of the electoral college, Dems and Cons would be out on their asses.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

So, in other words, without the unfair advantage of the electoral college, Dems and Cons would be out on their asses.

It ain’t the cons who cheated your beloved bernie out of two primaries, lotusrodent. Remember that

 

[cw_]

Dehumanization and Execution are bad.
Whereas 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' may be true, the analogous 'The road to heaven is paved with bad intentions' certainly is snot.

To wit: “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” -

 

[Oerdin]

That's the whole problem though... a broken/flawed process by definition lacks integrity.

How is it a "broken or flawed system" to require candidates to campaign and win votes in all 50 states in order to be elected president? That sounds like a feature not a flaw to me as it requires candidates to actually campaign and take into account far more states instead of just the five largest cities.

Far more people end up having a say and that is exactly why the electoral college was agreed to be all states. To make sure a few states don't get to steam roll everything. This is the very definition between a republic and a direct democracy (which can only exist on the same city level). It is vital and necessary to a Republic.