An adult conversation I brought in about Trans issues

[Lily]

Someone posted this:

 

[Lily]

^^My guy replied with:

So the good doctor hits the trifecta: misleading description of 5-alpha reductase effects; omission of an intersex condition which better supports her contention that gender is a social construct rather than a biological condition; and both coupled with supercilious condescension toward anyone who believes in the physiological determination of sex.

1. Men who suffer from 5-alpha reductase deficiency are biological men. Parenthetically, while women also may have 5-alpha reductase deficiency, they exhibit no symptoms and cannot be said to have a disease syndrome (other than being carriers).
A man with severe reductase deficiency may appear at birth to be female because the penis is small and the testicles undescended.

Less severe deficiency may produce an infant with ambiguous genitals or one correctly identified as male. Genetic testing would show male XY phenotype in all cases.

None of these male infants has an ovary or womb or a vagina. None will be able to give birth. Severe cases may have a slit which appears like a vaginal opening. Such an opening does not develop into an actual vagina.
Since the 5-alpha reductase deficient males have normal male levels of testosterone and do not in general have female-like levels of estrogen, their brains tend to develop masculine features. In puberty the increased levels of testosterone result in male body hair, musculature and voice. Their testicles descend and they exhibit typical male behavior. Even if they were raised as females they usually switch to living as men.

An occasional reductase-deficient male will choose to stay living as female because he has achieved some status as a woman. Several "women" athletes are reductase-deficient males whose livelihoods would be sacrificed if they transitioned to males. Others may be reluctant to cross over because their penises are too small to have sexual relations and many are infertile. But in general they think and feel like men rather than women. The experience of most such men actually argues for the biological determination of sex: those raised as women usually switch to being men under the influence of male hormones.

2. A better example of both sexual and "gender" discordance between persons and their genetics comes from those with partial or total androgen-receptor dysfunction. Though their bodies make testosterone, their receptors don't respond; the androgenic hormones are partially or totally "invisible" to their cells. In genetic XX women the nonfunctioning receptors do not impair their fertility or feminine appearance.

In genetic XY men, however, the loss of androgen receptor function results in feminization of genitals, body fat distribution and appearance, and often emotions and thought as well. Those with complete ARD appear to be female at birth though they have undescended testicles and lack ovaries and uterus. They usually have an external appearance of a normal vulva but a short vagina. Often their condition is discovered only when they fail to have menses at puberty. They of course cannot bear children and may experience discomfort with vaginal intercourse, but they appear externally as normal women and behave like females. They are in fact women despite their genotype.

Genetic XY males with partial ARD may have symptoms ranging from mild to profound depending on the degree of receptor impairment. Those with severe but not total ARD often fall into a curious condition neither male nor female. They have genitals ranging from small but male to mostly female in appearance. They may have little body hair including sparse pubic hair, and don't develop male musculature or voice. Body fat distribution may make them look at least somewhat feminine.

Many of them identify emotionally as women. These conditions do not change when they reach puberty, unlike the situation with 5-alpha reductase-deficient males.

So do people with ARD demonstrate that sex or "gender" is merely a social construct? Not at all. In fact they clearly indicate the importance of sex hormones in determining both the physiological and emotional/behavioral aspects of sexual identity.

Those with significant but not complete ARD often have genitals that appear at birth to be sufficiently masculine that they were raised as males. A significant number of these feel more female than male, and many have undergone sex reassignment surgery as adults. My impression is that such surgery is more likely to have a favorable outcome on intersex patients like these than when performed on random head cases with mommy/daddy issues who hope that a change in genitalia will cure the emptiness inside.

3. "Gender" is a word with Latin roots indicating your tribe or group. Victorians liked to use it as a euphemism for the emotionally indelicate word "sex". The modern usage of gender as an unspecified correlate of sex but absolutely independent from one's biological sex is a weaseling prevarication. If gender merely indicates your personal affiliations rather than your sex, then your gender might be "Atlanta Braves fan" or "crocheting" or "internet addict". But the people who talk endlessly about gender identity do want it be somehow about sex, yet unconstrained by one's crotch parts. The people who claim there are 57 genders also claim that gender is a mere social construct and simultaneously that genders are protected classes under the laws mandating nondiscrimination on the basis of sex.

The woman in the video who appears to be a physician practices, I take it, in the area of sexual disorders. Does anyone know if this is the case? If so, within what sort of subspecialty? Is she in the gender reassignment racket? As I remarked above, I think there are some people born with biological intersex conditions who can benefit from reassignment surgery.

But they are a small part of the trendies who are being lured into the modern genital mutilation craze. This is a movement built on lies about the fundamental nature of biology and sex, and those who fall for the lie do and will regret at their leisure.

 

[Blurt]

Wow. A transphobe smackdown in under 30 seconds by someone with actual creds.

I'm impressed.

 

[Lily]

Wow. A transphobe smackdown in under 30 seconds by someone with actual creds.

I'm impressed.

Did you read the response to the video yet?

 

[Blurt]

Yes, I did.

That was also a transphobe smackdown but it took considerably more than 30 seconds to read.

 

[Lily]

Yes, I did.

That was also a transphobe smackdown but it took considerably more than 30 seconds to read.

This man and his brain power is why I can't stand reading the pseudo-scientific rants on this forum.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

Lily. Didn’t you get banned from CBT by the mentally Ill trans person for “”transphobia”” ?

 

[Lily]

Lily. Didn’t you get banned from CBT by the mentally Ill trans person for “”transphobia”” ?

Yes, I was briefly banned for not following the herd.

 

[Oerdin]

Someone posted this:

She is just spewing partisan nonsense. No, rare genetic abnormalities do not invalidate the fact that there are only two genders, that they are biologically based, and are not social constructs.

 

[Lily]

Someone posted this:

She is just spewing partisan nonsense. No, rare genetic abnormalities do not invalidate the fact that there are only two genders, that they are biologically based, and are not social constructs.

I would read the second post if I were you. Please do not tell me that you know more than that person. You don't.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

Lily. Didn’t you get banned from CBT by the mentally Ill trans person for “”transphobia”” ?

Yes, I was briefly banned for not following the herd.

so then, considering you are the only one among us who has been banned for "transphobia" by an actual crazy person who believes in this stuff why don't you tell the class exactly what does constitute a "transphobe" ?

 

[Lily]

Lily. Didn’t you get banned from CBT by the mentally Ill trans person for “”transphobia”” ?

Yes, I was briefly banned for not following the herd.

so then, considering you are the only one among us who has been banned for "transphobia" by an actual crazy person who believes in this stuff why don't you tell the class exactly what does constitute a "transphobe" ?

I think anyone that wants them dead, wants them persecuted or prosecuted for being different.

I can respect someone that believes whatever they want about themselves. It's no skin off of my nose.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I think anyone that wants them dead, wants them persecuted or prosecuted for being different.

But are they being persecuted for being different or are they being persecuted for imposing their beliefs onto others in a bullying fashion?

Let's take the Colorado Christian baker as our case study for the purpose of this discussion. Did you know that the very day the supreme court ruling came down that he was not guilty of discrimination but rather upholding his own beliefs a trans person walked into his bakery asking he bake a cake for their "Transition"

do you not think things like that will result in some deep rooted resentment towards them?

 

[Lily]

I think anyone that wants them dead, wants them persecuted or prosecuted for being different.

But are they being persecuted for being different or are they being persecuted for imposing their beliefs onto others in a bullying fashion?

Let's take the Colorado Christian baker as our case study for the purpose of this discussion. Did you know that the very day the supreme court ruling came down that he was not guilty of discrimination but rather upholding his own beliefs a trans person walked into his bakery asking he bake a cake for their "Transition"

do you not think things like that will result in some deep rooted resentment towards them?

Yes, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want someone that disrespects me making my cake. Why?
If I were LGBTQIA, I would take my money to an LGBTQIA friendly establishment.


However, if you open your door to the public, shouldn't you be willing to take money from any one that is willing to pay? I am unconvinced that making a cake, regardless of what's on it, is forced "participation" in something you don't agree in.

It's not like they are officiating, attending the wedding...at most it is delivery of a cake.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I think anyone that wants them dead, wants them persecuted or prosecuted for being different.

But are they being persecuted for being different or are they being persecuted for imposing their beliefs onto others in a bullying fashion?

Let's take the Colorado Christian baker as our case study for the purpose of this discussion. Did you know that the very day the supreme court ruling came down that he was not guilty of discrimination but rather upholding his own beliefs a trans person walked into his bakery asking he bake a cake for their "Transition"

do you not think things like that will result in some deep rooted resentment towards them?

Yes, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want someone that disrespects me making my cake. Why?
If I were LGBTQIA, I would take my money to an LGBTQIA friendly establishment.


However, if you open your door to the public, shouldn't you be willing to take money from any one that is willing to pay? I am unconvinced that making a cake, regardless of what's on it, is forced "participation" in something you don't agree in.

It's not like they are officiating, attending the wedding...at most it is delivery of a cake.

shouldn't a matter of conscience be left up to the person who's beliefs are being pressed in this matter? Who are we to tell him what he is or is not to view as a breech of his personal faith? that seem like freedom to you?

Does opening your doors to the public preclude you from such a basic right?

and again, the crux of the matter here is the bullying. Would you not agree that once this man has fought his way to the highest court in our land and won this should be considered a settled matter and these transfreaks should find themselves an alphabet soup baker with ideologies more consistent with their own?

 

[Lily]

I think anyone that wants them dead, wants them persecuted or prosecuted for being different.

But are they being persecuted for being different or are they being persecuted for imposing their beliefs onto others in a bullying fashion?

Let's take the Colorado Christian baker as our case study for the purpose of this discussion. Did you know that the very day the supreme court ruling came down that he was not guilty of discrimination but rather upholding his own beliefs a trans person walked into his bakery asking he bake a cake for their "Transition"

do you not think things like that will result in some deep rooted resentment towards them?

Yes, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want someone that disrespects me making my cake. Why?
If I were LGBTQIA, I would take my money to an LGBTQIA friendly establishment.


However, if you open your door to the public, shouldn't you be willing to take money from any one that is willing to pay? I am unconvinced that making a cake, regardless of what's on it, is forced "participation" in something you don't agree in.

It's not like they are officiating, attending the wedding...at most it is delivery of a cake.

shouldn't a matter of conscience be left up to the person who's beliefs are being pressed in this matter? Who are we to tell him what he is or is not to view as a breech of his personal faith? that seem like freedom to you?

Does opening your doors to the public preclude you from such a basic right?

and again, the crux of the matter here is the bullying. Would you not agree that once this man has fought his way to the highest court in our land and won this should be considered a settled matter and these transfreaks should find themselves an alphabet soup baker with ideologies more consistent with their own?

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

I think opening to the public does make you vulnerable. He probably doesn't agree with domestic violence and I'm betting that in his career he's baked cakes for abusers, maybe even child molesters, etc.

I guess as long as he doesn't "know" he's okay with it... *shrugs*

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

 

[Lily]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

 

[Lily]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

 

[Lily]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

 

[Blurt]

 

[Lily]

What is that emoji, Blurt dear? Even with my reading glasses on...

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

so you're saying he should be conscripted into service against his will in the favor of people who have made a choice to be a certain and you justify this with an example using an immutable characteristic like one's ethnicity to support your argument.

interesting

So if the idea that God himself was a homosexual in the trans community suddenly became a thing and they wanted this guy to write "jesus has a juicy asshole ripe for fucking" on a cake this guy should be forced to write that on a cake as well? Despite how he personally feels about it?

 

[Lily]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

so you're saying he should be conscripted into service against his will in the favor of people who have made a choice to be a certain and you justify this with an example using an immutable characteristic like one's ethnicity to support your argument.

interesting

So if the idea that God himself was a homosexual in the trans community suddenly became a thing and they wanted this guy to write "jesus has a juicy asshole ripe for fucking" on a cake this guy should be forced to write that on a cake as well? Despite how he personally feels about it?

Do you know any gay people? They'd never put that on their cakes. It's tacky AF.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

so you're saying he should be conscripted into service against his will in the favor of people who have made a choice to be a certain and you justify this with an example using an immutable characteristic like one's ethnicity to support your argument.

interesting

So if the idea that God himself was a homosexual in the trans community suddenly became a thing and they wanted this guy to write "jesus has a juicy asshole ripe for fucking" on a cake this guy should be forced to write that on a cake as well? Despite how he personally feels about it?

Do you know any gay people? They'd never put that on their cakes. It's tacky AF.

You're missing the point of course

and yes, I know gay people, but no I don't know what they would ever put or not put on a cake at some point in the near or distant future

30 years ago none of us thought there would be 86 genders... and yet, today, here we hare.

so please, do not presume you can predict the future. THat's a failed argument and we both know it.

 

[Lily]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

so you're saying he should be conscripted into service against his will in the favor of people who have made a choice to be a certain and you justify this with an example using an immutable characteristic like one's ethnicity to support your argument.

interesting

So if the idea that God himself was a homosexual in the trans community suddenly became a thing and they wanted this guy to write "jesus has a juicy asshole ripe for fucking" on a cake this guy should be forced to write that on a cake as well? Despite how he personally feels about it?

Do you know any gay people? They'd never put that on their cakes. It's tacky AF.

You're missing the point of course

and yes, I know gay people, but no I don't know what they would ever put or not put on a cake at some point in the near or distant future

30 years ago none of us thought there would be 86 genders... and yet, today, here we hare.

so please, do not presume you can predict the future. THat's a failed argument and we both know it.

I'm not predicting the future at all. I'm saying all these behaviors that concern you are outside of the norm for the vast majority in the gay community.

If they want to only serve a certain segment of the community, perhaps they need to close their storefront and then only bake for people that they decide to take on as customers.

I would look to exclusive organizations to find out how they accept new clients/members.

 

[Biggie Smiles]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

so you're saying he should be conscripted into service against his will in the favor of people who have made a choice to be a certain and you justify this with an example using an immutable characteristic like one's ethnicity to support your argument.

interesting

So if the idea that God himself was a homosexual in the trans community suddenly became a thing and they wanted this guy to write "jesus has a juicy asshole ripe for fucking" on a cake this guy should be forced to write that on a cake as well? Despite how he personally feels about it?

Do you know any gay people? They'd never put that on their cakes. It's tacky AF.

You're missing the point of course

and yes, I know gay people, but no I don't know what they would ever put or not put on a cake at some point in the near or distant future

30 years ago none of us thought there would be 86 genders... and yet, today, here we hare.

so please, do not presume you can predict the future. THat's a failed argument and we both know it.

I'm not predicting the future at all. I'm saying all these behaviors that concern you are outside of the norm for the vast majority in the gay community.

If they want to only serve a certain segment of the community, perhaps they need to close their storefront and then only bake for people that they decide to take on as customers.

I would look to exclusive organizations to find out how they accept new clients/members.

"They'd never put that on their cakes"

that sounds a lot like predicting an outcome to me. and the word "never" kinda lends itself to that whole predicting the future we discussed earlier.

How do you know what a grouping of people you don't personally identify with would or would not want to write on a cake?

To you and I splitting our tongue to look like a dragon would seem tacky as fuck. Discoloring our faces as well.. and so and forth

but there are people doing it

stick to the essence of the matter here, dear. That is, should a person of religious beliefs be forced to write something on a piece of paper or on a cake which is morally repulsive to him for the sake of inclusiveness when there are about a dozen other bakeries within a 5 mile radius which are capable of handling this request?

 

[Blurt]

I agree that they are targeting the baker. Those people are intent on hounding him out of business I'm sure.

Okay, so now we are on to something here.

They are hounding him out of business... persecuting him so to speak. And why? Because he's different than they are.

so when like minded people with a lot less self control than this guy hear about this story, get enraged and attack the nearest trans person they can find are they really attacking that person merely because that person is "different" or could it be that they are enraged and simply lashing out at the gross injustice of these people being able to use tax payer funded institutions as personal mercenaries to wage war against honest hard working people?

Regardless of one's feelings it's not okay to beat up anyone in a country where we abide the rule of law. It's a step way too far. No one is beating up the baker in any physical sense whatsoever.

Those are not the same.

We can agree on that.

But you assert they are being targeted simply because they are different and I am asserting that the average American, given all the pains of inflation and near financial devastation wouldn't be all too worried about what a person does with their own penis behind closed doors were it not for the fact that this agenda is being shoved down their throats in short order and more and more people are simply having enough of it.

perhaps a live and let live philosophy on both sides of aisle would bring us to a more favorable outcome?

I think he was targeted because they have been discriminated against. But when you deny someone services you are not living and letting live.

You're saying, these people can live and be treated as equal citizens in my store and you others cannot.

As a Latino, would you want someone turning you away simply because you're Latino? It's happened in this country before. How would you like that?

I will admit that I wouldn't like it.

Did he deny services tho or merely state that he could not use his talents in a manner inconsistent with his personal beliefs

as I read it he offered them a multitude of cakes, cookies and other items but simply drew the line where his conscience was offended

A distinction without a difference.

so you're saying he should be conscripted into service against his will in the favor of people who have made a choice to be a certain and you justify this with an example using an immutable characteristic like one's ethnicity to support your argument.

interesting

So if the idea that God himself was a homosexual in the trans community suddenly became a thing and they wanted this guy to write "jesus has a juicy asshole ripe for fucking" on a cake this guy should be forced to write that on a cake as well? Despite how he personally feels about it?

Do you know any gay people? They'd never put that on their cakes. It's tacky AF.

You're missing the point of course

and yes, I know gay people, but no I don't know what they would ever put or not put on a cake at some point in the near or distant future

30 years ago none of us thought there would be 86 genders... and yet, today, here we hare.

so please, do not presume you can predict the future. THat's a failed argument and we both know it.

Biggie "Red Herring" Smiles strikes again.